Discussions on Food & Drink

OK, I got thrown off by the textual description, which seems to be more about the ingredient, as opposed to the Freebase type, which says recipe.

Having said that, I see a few issues:

• recipes don't always result in dishes. Roux (any type) is an ingredient which is never served as a dish.

• If you're going to allow infinite variety, there needs to be a way to relate the hierarchy of Roux-Cajun Roux-Billy Bob's Cajun Roux-Billy Bob's Cajun Roux (alternative 2), so that users can navigate to the appropriate ingredient (and its recipe). It looks like the "type of dish" property could be used for this except for the property description which says it's for things like "appetizer."

• diets don't relate to recipes, but rather their result (dish or ingredient)

• This notation - "Preparation time: 1 min (0.6 hs )" - is weird and I have no idea what it means. What exactly is an "hs" and who will it be significant for?

• The use of user specified measures like cups and textual descriptions with things like Fahrenheit degrees runs counter to the way the rest of Freebase works vis a vis units of measure.

Adding Food domain for wider visibility...

(not sure why the previous reply posted twice)

Tom,

I agree with you. Recipes don't always result in dishes. (I think that's the core problem in the Food Domain at large, so solve it somehow) 1. Cajun Roux is really a Recipe type only. That's admitted by me. 2. Roux (and even Cajun Roux) should be allowed as an ingredient in Dishes like Gumbo or Etouffee 3. Unit of measures does need to be fixed. But I'll leave it to experts like you and Freebase Staff.

(Cajun Roux was a DISH type about 2 days ago, and then politely someone slapped my hand and I removed the DISH type leaving only Recipe type)

Regards, Thad

@Tom:

• "hs" is plural of "h", which is the standard abbreviation of "hour". This appears to be a new client feature (see Kareem Abdul-Jabbar's height, for another example).
• as far as the units of measure go, we decided to allow users to select measures (rather than a. forcing them to convert and b. having multiple properties) because recipes vary widely in terms of what measures are used, and often use measures that can't easily be converted, either because they're approximate (like "handful", "dash", "pinch") or because they same term (like "cup") can be a variety of different measurements depending on context. I think this makes the schema considerably more usable.
• extending the description of "dish" (and "type of dish") so that it can include things like roux and sauces and doughs seems like a good idea to me.
• as far as diet goes, a lot of what determines whether something is appropriate to a diet is how it's prepared -- you can't assert, for example, that the dish "buckwheat pancakes" is suitable to a gluten-free diet, since some recipes use wheat flour as well. Also, if you have a specific diet, it's a common use case to look for recipes that are compatible with that diet, rather than for dishes in general.

@Thad: re #2 -- this is already allowed. (Since this is Freebase, it is also technically possible to include books, makes of automobile, and entire industries as ingredients, although doing so would generally be discouraged.)

Two quickies:

• 1 min. is not equal to 0.6 hour. If hs is supposed to be hours, the math is screwed up.
• I'd argue that there's a one-to-one correspondence between recipes and dishes. If you've got a recipe for gluten-free buckwheat pancakes, that makes a dish which is a variation of the overall category of buckwheat pancakes. Jeff's gluten-free buckwheat pancake recipe and Tom's gluten-free buckwheat pancake recipe each result in different dish which are both in the gluten-free buckwheat pancake recipe category.

@Jeff - Then if "dish" property operates that way, then why is it still linking incorrectly after I've since removed the "dish" property of "cajun roux" ? See here for example and notice the Dish property still shows "Cajun Roux" ? Why ? http://www.freebase.com/view/en/roux

Also, another issue brought to my attention is the following comment back to me from Warren. It stemmed from my linking of Potato Cakes to Kosher Diet, and in turn Judaism by Freebase for some reason? I've since told Warren, that it wasn't something done intentionally by myself, but rather Freebase type linking the diet improperly ?

" Warren Harris (warren) commented on your Freebase profile:

I also happened to notice that you added practicer_of_diet (a type associated with people) to /en/judaism, which in turn caused /en/judaism to be typed as /people/person (as well as /food/diet_follower). I've deleted person and diet_follower, and think that practicer_of_diet should be deleted as well.

See this discussion or reply to warren here: http://www.freebase.com/view/guid/9202a8c04000641f8000000005f3ce1b?_since=2009-09-28T17%3A07%3A34.0013Z

" -Thad

For Roux, we'd probably want to split that into a least two topics, of types /food/recipe and /food/dish, which is what I think you're suggesting.

Anyway, I'll go ahead and do something with /food/recipe/techniques on sandbox and a reciprocal property on ingredients.

What is Culinary Techniques ? And how would I use that in Roux ? (basically Roux is made by stirring together flour and oil (butter, or lard) for about 20 mins on medium heat until the flour darkens. So stirring in a cast iron skillet would be the culinary technique ? Enlighten me on that one, I'd like to know more about what culinary technique is referred to under /food/recipe

I did add /food/recipe and /food/dish to Roux to the best of my ability and looks good on this end.

I guess your right. Roux is basically a recipe (sort of) similar to how there are recipes for sauces? In my mind, I could equate that to a sauce, basically combining ingredients to make something that is further used in a dish with additional ingredients later on, in this case, Gumbo

I added /food/ingredient/recipes as a reverse property, and /food/recipe/techniques on both production and sandbox.

See Country Soudough Bread as an example.

I added a comment on the Culinary Technique type, to mean that it's intended for the more specialized cooking techniques, above frying an egg in pan, for example.

One use case being that someone might want to practice a technique, so they could find various recipes with that technique. Or someone might want to organize recipe content by techniques. Or have a blog posting about a technique, and say hey here's a bunch of recipes with this technique to learn more.

@thadguidry: The types Recipe and Dish should not be used on the same topic: Dish represents the general food; a Recipe is a specific way of making it.

Both dishes and recipes can (and should!) be used as ingredients, as you intuited with Gumbo. Sauces are a good example of this, as might pie crusts and other pastries.

I agree somewhat. Funny, I just posted my Need to expand beyond just followers. And THEN, I read your post here. LOL. However your suggestion is fairly comprehensive. I was thinking more along the lines of what I suggested, since not all followers necessarily are orthodox (strict followers), so a quick selection drop down might be a better approach and cover a broader use? I thinking on just the basics as shown in this table ... http://asiarecipe.com/religion.html

X - prohibited or strongly discouraged A - avoided by the most devout R - some restrictions regarding types of foods or when foods are eaten O - permitted, but may be avoided at some observances

Anyone else ? Let's get this merged somehow. I need it somewhat and I'm sure others do as well. Put it to a vote.

Wine producers try to locate their wine to as specific and prestigious a region as possible, down to the vineyard level. Wines blended from grapes from multiple appelations, though, can only contain a region or sub-region in their labeling.

• The wine region will be the wine producing region (often defined officially by the national wine association, e.g, DOCG)
• Subregion often gives some common character to the wines. Côte de Nuits and Côte de Beaune are are well-recognized subregions of the Bourgogne region. Sometimes there won't be an applicable subregion, so you skip down to appelation.
• Appelation will generally come from an offically recognized source of appelations like US TTB defines American Viticultural Areas, or DOC defines appelations for Piemonte, or AOC for France.

DRC La Tache

Rhys Pinot

2000 Michele Chiarlo Barolo Cerequio

Hope that helps.

Its a pretty big task :)

There's stuff like the USDA exports with this all laid out, there's also a few attempts to model nutritional information; but overall its a bit unclear and tedious

We're working on some nutritional data loading from the USDA.  I'm Cc'ing mikeshwe, who's in charge of this, so he knows you're interested, too.

 Our first goal is to load data for all the topics Freebase has already typed as Ingredients.

Hi mateolan!  I'm the owner of the Food base, and I'm a member of staff here.  In my team we often work on draft schema in bases, and then those get promoted into the commons.  So originally I created my Food base to work out some schema around Dishes and Ingredients and a few other things.  Some of these were promoted, and some weren't, but what you see hanging around in the Food base now is just kind of a working area for me.

 Also, the "based on" thing only came into existence around November '08.  Any bases created before then (actually, we called them user domains, not bases, at that time) weren't "based on" the Commons.  "Based on" occurs when you create a saved view using a type in the commons, and save it to your base.  That's only been around for a little while.

Xian One Day Terracotta Warriors and City Gourmet Tour

Xian Gourmet Tour Itinerary:

1 Pick up from your hotel between 8:30 am and 9:00 am by private vehicle and English speaking tour guide. Enjoy xian-style breakfast: Meat-Ball Hot Soup

2 Drive to and visit Terra-cotta Warriors and Horses - the Eighth Wonder of the World. More than 6,000 different looking pottery figures depict the history of the Qin Dynasty from 221 BC-206 BC. Take sightseeing in this attraction for about 1.5 to 2 hours.

3 Drive back to Xian city and Go to the famous Tong Sheng Xiang (Prosperity and Fortune) Beef and Lamb Paomo Restaurant for lunch. Here you will taste Yang Rou Pao Mo (a soup dish that involves breaking wheat flour flat bread into a bowl and adding a delicious mutton stock). Yangrou Paomo is a tasty xi'an specialty that consists of a mutton soup served with wheat flour flat bread. The hard bread is broken up and added to the soup. Then the mixture is eaten along with pickled garlic cloves.

4 visit the ancient City Wall - the best preserved, oldest and largest ancient city defense system in China. The wall has a history of over 600 years.

5 Be transferred back to De Fa Chang Dumpling Restaurant for supper. Xian Dumpling Banquet is another  interesting culinary experience in Xi'an. This was first started in 1984 by the Xi'an Dumpling Feast Restaurant on Jiefang Road , offers up to 108 different kinds of Chinese dumplings ( Jiaozi ). Now the most popular restaurant for this is De Fa Chang Restaurant. Ingredients for the dumpling fillings include various meats, vegetables, and seasonings. Cooking methods include steaming, boiling, pan-frying, deep frying, and roasting. Many flavors, including salty, sweet, hot, and sour are offered. Other house specialties include Peking dumplings, steamed sweet bean paste buns, steamed shrimp paste buns, and various uniquely spiced dishes. While guests sample various delicacies, traditionally waiters will explain the cuisine culture of each dumpling.

Terra Cotta Warriors and Horses: The Terra Cotta Warriors and Horses are the most significant archeological excavations of the 20th century. Work is ongoing at this site, which is around 1.5 kilometers east of Emperor Qin Shi Huang's Mausoleum, Lintong County, Shaanxi province. It is a sight not to be missed by any visitor to China. Altogether over 7,000 pottery soldiers, horses, chariots, and even weapons have been unearthed from these pits. Most of them have been restored to their former grandeur. It was listed by UNESCO in 1987 as one of the world cultural heritages

Ancient Xian City Wall: After the establishment of the Ming dynasty, emperor Zhu Yuanzhang began to enlarge the wall built initially during the old Tang dynasty (618 -907), creating the modern Xian City Wall. It's the most complete city wall that has survived in China, as well being one of the largest ancient military defensive systems in the world. 

for more information please visit http://english.51766.com/detail/line_detail.jsp?info_id=1101372835

from http://english.51766.com by lisa

Lets start thediscussion on food... My primary interest is in nutritional information and ingredients of "complex" foods. But I think this gets complex reasonably quickly.

For example, some brand of crackers may contain powered cheddar cheese, which is itself a food. But the nutritional value of the crackers probably can't be easily derived from Cheddar Cheese.. not to mention that Cheddar Cheese is itself a food. Cheddar Cheese contains cow's milk and rennet, but I don't think we'd consider rennet itself a food.

 So my proposal is a type Food which has an included type Ingredient, as well as a property Ingredients which points to a list of Ingredients.

 Food would have properties like Genre, maybe Country of origin, etc... but Ingredient would have stuff like "Nutritional information"

 Nutritional Information would be a CVT which would indicate how many units of some nutritional thing, normalized to a "per 100g" unit (I think that's the standard in Europe, and the US is based on Serving Size, which is totally non-normalizable)

 for example, cheddar cheese might have  "2 mg of Vitamin A" - so the CVT for Nutritional Value would have an Integer quantity, a mass unit unit, and a nutritional thing.

 Thoughts? I'll model this up on sandbox... 

Also a property for the basic food type called 'form' or something similar would help add more detail to the original food type. You example of crackers containing powdered cheddar cheese is a good candidate. In that scneario 'ingrediant' itself would be a cvt between food A, food B and the form of the contained food. However things like HFCS complicate things a bit, but for the most part, it would be quite helpful as shredded cheddar cheese is different from powedered cheddar cheese. 

The USDA has a fairly extensive database of nutritional data (per 100g unit) available for download at: http://www.ars.usda.gov/Services/docs.htm?docid=8964

It includes base ingredients (e.g. various cuts of meat), both cooked and uncooked. If you're looking for nutritional information or ideas on how to classify it, that may be a good place to start.

The data consists of multiple files - one per table - containing one record per line in a fixed width text format. It probably wouldn't be too difficult for someone with time on their hands to write an importer for freebase.

I would vote for the ingredients to be included as a property. There was talk about creating a recipe type/property that list ingredient amounts as well, but  nothing came out of it.

This would support queries like, "What cocktails use creme de cacao?"

Hey Thad -

I started to model some of my food proposal below but I explored, I came across some of your types like Macroingredient. 

 I'm really impressed, and I realized you've done a much better job at breaking this stuff down than I have. I'd like to offer that we move most of your food-related types into the food domain, and lets make you an administrator.

 Here is my suggestion: go and "publish" all the types that you'd like to see moved into /food. (You can get there from the schema editor) - then we'll look over the list here, and see which ones should end up in food (I suspect most of them)