Discussions on Religious Organization Leadership

It seems to me that a Religious Leadership Jurisdiction type should have links to the Relgion and to the Religious Leadership Role that has jurisdiction over it. We could also link it to the Religious Organization Leadership CVT, but that might make the model a bit too complex.  Do you have a use case for putting it on the CVT? (I know we did it on the Government Position Held CVT, so there is precedent.)

It would definitely be nice to have a place to put all those see and diocese and whatnot topics.

I've drafted up Religious Jurisdiction, a time mediated CVT between jurisdiction and Religious Leader, and Jurisdiction category.  Let me know your thoughts.

skud has an Anglicanism base with a schema that covers similar things, but is specific to that religion.

Some thoughts:

Religious Jurisdiction should include Location (so you can say that the Diocese of York is contained by the Province of York), and Dated Location.

I think it would be useful to link the jurisdiction directly to the Roles, separately from the people  -- the Archbishop of York is both the bishop of the Diocese of York and the metropolitan of the Province of York, for example.  We could even do this as a three-way CVT, with the Jurisdiction, Role, and Type of Role (which would be, e.g., Diocesan Bishop, Suffragan Bishop, etc.).

Seeing the separate CVT linking Jurisdiction to Leader is making me rethink my objections to putting it on the existing Religious Organization Leadership type; otherwise, we're going to have to enter everybody twice.

As an aside, it seems that there is some bad data in the existing leadership instances, viz. the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco, which has been typed as a religious organization. It's not, of course; there are several organizations connected to the archdiocese, but I think it's going to be confusing to say that the Archbishop of San Francisco (the person) is the leader of the "The Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Francisco" (the non-profit corporation that operates the various parishes, charities, schools, etc. within its jurisdiction). Any thoughts on how to sort this out sensibly would be most welcome.

location & dated location - done.

I've changed religious title jurisdiction CVT to point to a new type, religious leadership title.   I noticed the religious leadership role type is fairly confused with data.  There are both specific (Archbishop of York) and broad (Archbishop) topics there.  I propose that Religious leadership role is broad and that Religious leadership Title is specific.

We'll have to enter everyone 3 times if we need to fill out data for Religious leadership role, religious organization and Religious leadership title!  Some refactoring is required here.....  Taking cue from the Nobility schema, I suggest religion (or should this be religious organization?) has both titles and roles.  roles have titles. and titles have leaders/people.  Does this work?

Roman Catholic Archdiocese of San Francisco - I suggest a split into two topics.  One for the location/jurisdiction, the other for the organization/corporation.  I've added an organisation property to jurisdiction, to link one to the other.

Coming back to this now.  I think we're getting close, but I think the Religious Leader Appointment type needs to also connect to Religious Organization and Religious Jurisdiction. Otherwise, you can't see who the leaders of a given organization or jurisdiction are (or not easily, anyway).

For top-level leaders (e.g. Pope, Dalai Lama), I guess we just leave the jurisdiction properties empty. But this makes it doubly important to link the appointment CVT to Religious Organization; otherwise there's no connection b/w the two.

Don't like the denormalization, but given the constraints of the client it makes sense.  There's also a lot of overlap with appointments.

Ignoring refactoring for appointments for the moment (should we go ahead with this?), I've updated Religous Leader Appointment and reciprocated in Religious Leader Jurisdiction.

I ported these types to the Religion domain on sandbox, reciprocated some of the properties on the Commons types, and hid the properties that would be replaced, because I'm having a hard time keeping all this in my head.

Take a look-see here:  http://www.sandbox-freebase.com/view/religion/religious_leadership_jurisdiction

good stuff jeff, just need to reciprocate on Religious Organization (from Religious Leader Jurisdiction).

Religious Leader Appointment isn't reciprocated or used at all.  Are we planning to refactor it for Appointment?

Thanks!  Religious Leader Appointment is being used -- I actually copied all of your types to the Religion domain, so I could edit them directly. It should be complemented by the Appointment schema, but not all leaders are appointed -- many are elected.

Looking at this again, I'd like to suggest a couple changes to Religious Leadership Jurisdiction:

1. Change the name to "Religious Jurisdiction"

2.  Remove the "religion" property -- I think the "Religious Organization" type is more directly applicable (e.g., knowing a jurisdiction is under "The Church of England" or "The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints" is more useful than knowing that it is somehow affiliated with "Anglicanism" or "Mormonism").

3. Make "Religious Organziation" a disambiguating property.

Religious Leadership Jurisdiction

1. Done
2. Done
3. Done

1. Appointing organisation property removed.
2. Renamed to Religius Leader Tenure 

Yeah, I saw that.  I think I picked up all of jeffs comments so far, which means we're probably good to go unless there's some other bugs lurking about.

Is there a JIRA task for this? (for some reason access to bugs.freebase.com is impossible from my connection, so I can't check myself).

https://bugs.freebase.com/browse/DA-838 .

Iain, do you want to keep your keys or views in your base?

Just a couple of questions.

Can you confirm that specific title topic like Archbishop of Canterbury or Bishop of Oxford should not have the type "Religious Leadership Role" ?

In the same topics, I noticed the presence of "Job title" type, the data should be moved into the type "Religious Leadership Title" (and "Job title" type removed) or must be in both ?

zeusi.  That's correct, "Religious Leadership Role" should go on "Archbishop" and be deleted from Archbishop of x.  There's a lot of these sorts of topics that require cleaning up.

"Archbishop of x" is a Religious title.  It can be linked to the role, through the 'Role or Rank' property.  I've filled this in for the Archbishop of Canterbury.

I think the "Job title" is redundant information, although not technically incorrect for modern archbishops (I imagine most current Archbishops are covered by national employment laws).  The examples in the Archbishop of Canterbury are obviously wrong, I very much doubt the CofE or its predecessors could be termed as 'employers' in that sense during the early medieval or Renaissance period.

Good spot zeusi.

+1, a person should be an included type on religious leader.