Discussions on Visual Art
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I want to propose a new property, “preliminary forms,” that might be applied to the following types within the Visual Art domain: - art series - artwork
This property will serve to connect artistic “products” with their artistic “process” (sketches, etc.). What little access the general public has to the private processes of artists is mostly contained in websites that remain hidden if not sought out. It is important for the less expansive body of data which surrounds artistic means rather than its so-called ends, not be lost in the web’s expanse. A “preliminary form” property will begin to link process to product and bridge these gaps.
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Hi Alex,
Interesting idea. Is this an area where you have data to contribute?
I think a "preliminary form" type would be more appropriate in the Media Commons. After all, any creative process can generate preliminary forms. This is also the domain where we have types like Unfinished Work, and Lost Work. Maybe Preliminary Work?
Jeff?
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Dear Jeff,
Thank you for your response.
What drew me to want to suggest this to the Visual Art domain was actually Edgar Degas. I would be very interested in aligning his paintings with his sketches that are often unattached and difficult to find on the web.
Degas did extensive sketch work and observed dancers prior to painting his works such as "Dancers at the Bar," etc. http://www.getty.edu/art/gettyguide/artObjectDetails?artobj=133702
I certainly see what you mean about "preliminary work." Maybe the sketches would fall under this category instead of "preliminary forms?"
Alexandra
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Problem: The Exhibit Type definition does not allow Art Series from what I can tell, only single items.
Ideally, someones art series could be exhibited (along with another artists' series or works) that becomes a Show (Exhibition) at a gallery. I have seen this many times, and it looks like we just need to allow connecting the dots, perhaps with an additional property on the Art Series itself for something like "part of Exhibition" ?
Exhibition name: "LOST & FOUND" Venue: Gallery Brown Date of Exhibition: Nov 20, 2010 Exhibition art displayed: 1. "Dead People's Stuff" series by Richard Dana Smith (that's what he calls his series) 2. selected works by Robert Mars (no series, for him)
http://robertmars.blogspot.com/search/label/Richard%20Dana%20Smith and http://www.facebook.com/pages/Richard-Dana-Smith/167649472475
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Why not just put in the selected works by Richard Dana Smith?
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Not sure I understand you Jeff. I did add 2 of his Artworks here: http://www.freebase.com/view/m/0h8bnb6
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I mean, why not put them in the exhibition? What's gained by entering the series as having been exhibited? (For one thing, putting in the individual works avoids the issue of whether the entire series was exhibited, or just part of it, especially if the artist adds to the series after the exhibition.)
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That's why they do not pay you enough ;) AH ! So, I just simply needed to add the Co-type of "Exhibit" to those 2 Artworks, as I have done now ? It should look much better now, Agreed ?
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Yes, that looks lovely.
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Great. Can I ask a little favor ?
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Perhaps add a with "Artwork" ?
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The description I would like to see would additionally add mention of Artwork and Art Series as an example:
"An exhibit is an item that has been displayed as part of an exhibition. Note that this should only be used for single items, such as Artworks, not for classes of items, such as Art Series"
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I'm not sure what you mean by add a type_hint with "Artwork"? All types generally get Type Hints, and Artwork already has a type description.
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An art series isn't really a class of items, though; it's a specific (group) entity; "paintings" is a class of items. The term "single work" should already exclude art series, since by definition, art series are composed of multiple works.
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Grr... 1. should be Perhaps add a type_hint with "Artwork" ?
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The problem is that I didn't know that Exhibit could be usefully used for this.
I am just trying to help with discovery of the Exhibit type within the web client. Perhaps that is not really possible beyond what we have already ?
I was wondering however if it made sense to have Artwork simply have a delegated property for "Exhibit" ? or maybe add Exhibit as an included type for Artwork ? Just something more to help with discovery... Seeing that lonely property on Exhibit, seems like that same property could easily be put or moved upon the Artwork type itself...but then I guess we still do need to keep Exhibit type...since you could have the need for Exhibits themselves along with a greater Exhibition of multiple Exhibits showcasing numerous Artworks such as ?? :
Exhibition : "Mogadishu - Battles Fought"
Exhibit 1 : "Force Reconnaissance"
Artworks exhibited : A.) Midnight Skyline with Force B.) Preparedness (A Glowing Halo)
Exhibit 2: "Air Superiority"
Artworks exhibited: A.) Brandenburg base military huddle B.) Devil's Wing Advocate
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Exhibits can have be many things, not just artworks, so it needs to be a separate type. Aliasing it as "artwork" would be misleading, I think. I also think you're misreading the definition of the Exhibit type: it's an exhibited thing, not a subsection of an exhibition.
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I do not think I am misreading. "An exhibit is an item that has been displayed as part of an exhibition."
as part of an exhibition sort of lends itself to the idea of a subsection of an exhibition. part-of, subsection, hates_english... ;)
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So, many times in product design, a signature artistic piece or artwork is incorporating into the final product design. Sometimes, the artwork itself is later released by the artist within a lithograph portfolio run. Other times, it is never released separately and was only commissioned for the products design.
I did not see a good use case for the Art Form property on Art Work : http://www.freebase.com/view/m/0h6nqgb and Azzaro Couture Prestige Edition webpage
I did notice the "Concept art" but that's pre-production concept designing, not Art Work used or rendered on final products.
It would be handier to be able to connect the Art Work with a "/used_on" property to the Consumer Product, I think. Or perhaps, "/products_used_on" that expects a "/products_with_art_work". Sometimes, it might be a picture of a sculpture that is slapped onto the final product. But I think just "/products_used_on" works well for that, as long as we mention in the description, "An Art Work or rendering of an Art Work on the product..."
Thoughts ? (Product Design and Fashion are a few longtail domains that need more help here)... Schema.org extensions might be notable uptakes for this "Art Work <--> Product with Art Work" proposal. ;)
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A demo tool is available to browse artwork topics over time and easily add date properties to topics that don't have any in a very friendly way (two clicks): http://client1.mondeca.com/TemporalQueryModule/?locale=en&demo=visualart
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can we add dates for when a work was composed (start, end)? i'd like to start building timeline visualizations of this. this is particularly applicable to classical music but could be generally useful. for instance a timeline of brahms's symphonys (it took him ~14 years to write it because he felt so pressured coming after beethoven's 9th).
secondly - place composed (probably non unique) would be interesting for mapping the works composed. for example - dvorak's new world symphony and american string quartet, and mapping liszt's travels. in general there's quite a lot of data on location composed particularly for classical music that we could easily structure.
thirdly - and this is more complicated, at least for classical music, we should capture the catalog ID - which for many composers is an opus, number combination, but for mozart it was K for Ludwig Ritter von Köchel and haydn and bach also had their own thing.
fourthly - we should also capture key for classical compositions.
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and some more ideas:
to whom the composition was dedicated is often interesting.
who (person, or sometimes entity such as the san francisco opera) commisioned the work is also often interesting.
location, date, and performer of the premeir is also often interesting.
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As with most good user suggestions, I will say: Go try it out!
The question of catalog keys is easiest. Go make /user/arielb/koechel, and create an enumerated property for a Mozart composition type. Other notable catalogs (Schickele) can be similarly modeled. Opus numbers could be a machine-readable string, but probably on a Classical composition type; other compositions do not tend to have those.
The key, dedication, commission, première, all seem like good properties for classical compositions as well.
The date and place of composition is an interesting challenge, an example of a frequent modeling challenge in Freebase. Representing this information complicates the model when done properly; one really wants the composer-composition relationship to be a CVT. However, most compositions don’t have this information readily available, making it an unnecessary composition. Would it be acceptable to have the date(s) and place of composition simply depending from the composition itself? That would mean, for example, that one could not correctly describe compositions begun by one composer and completed by another.
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ok - i'll look into the catalog numbers seperately in a classical music domain once i get around to it.
i set up a user domain for dedications (Dedicated Work). I think this could be generally useful (applied to literature and what not) and does not need to be directly tied to composition.
Place of composition should likely be non unique since there are numerous instances where the composer travelled while writing the piece. I think for modeling place composed similar to places lived is sufficient. Similarly, capturing a start and end date is also likely sufficient. Modelling compositions begun by one composer and finished by others is basically just hard (see this example) and happens infrequently enough that i think if someone cared enough they could break out the variant completions into seperate compositions. but for simplicity's sake, i think just having a date begun, date completed pair on the composition itself would help capture lots of useful data.
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Been thinkin about the right way to handle place and dates of composition.
I think the creation of any work of art (including theater, film, visual art, whatever) should be considered a /project/project with the /music/composition being the /project/project_focus. This allows for multiple roles for collaborative works as well as start/end dates for each role and subsection. I would go as far to say that every major work of art should have a property that points to the project of it's creation.
I've been trying to figure out if a creative process deserves to be a child class of /project/project, but I can't think of a compelling reason.
Now, location isn't so much a property of a composition as it is a property of the composer (or author or sculptor) at the time of their participation in the /project/project. So map Liszt's travels in his own /person/person/places_lived cvt and then you can implicitly figure out where he was when he was involved in the /project/project focusing on each piece. This would require a more detailed places_lived field than most artists currently have, but I think that's a good thing.
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For some compositions, the location composed actually had an impact on the work itself such as String Quartet No. 12. This also enables interesting views of compositions such as Locations for Mozart compositions.
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Is it possible to add a new artwork genre ("animal paintings") for describing paintings by animaliers, animal painters, bird artists, dog artists and equine artists? Getty's AAT differentiates between still lifes (that portray dead animals) and animal paintings: "The term [still lifes] originally included paintings in which the focus was on living animals at rest, although such depictions would now be called "animal paintings."
Thanks.
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Hi Chris,
Sorry for the delay. I've added Animal Painting as a new artwork genre. Let me know if there's anything else you see missing.
-- Faye
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Thanks, Faye.
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Hi.
Could Digital Art (http://www.freebase.com/view/en/digital_art) be added to the list of Visual Art Forms (http://www.freebase.com/view/visual_art/visual_art_form) ?
There are many works that just don't fit into the current categories.
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Can we add "Decorative art" to the enumeration visual art genre?
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I'm not sure if it is appropriate for this base, but I figure you guys would at least know how best to do this.
I've got at least one art organization/gallery that only shows their "juried" artists. I can show that they are a Member of the Organization via the existing types, but that doesn't really give the same meaning.
Any ideas on how to do this kind of association? (I'm not much of a modeler)
Also, FYI, I left a comment in the Exhibition area - I'd like to be able to list the exhibitions an artist has participated in. I figure this is something you guys might be interested in as well.
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I could imagine a Gallery type with a property for Artists Represented. (Somebody else can decide where "art" ends and "craft" begins".)
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Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that a juried artist is an artist participating in a juried show, where participation/selection is conditional on some standard of quality, etc. Such participation is more likely to be linked to an event -- such as an exhibition or competition -- held by an organization, rather than the organization itself.
If a new type is created for a "juried art event", with properties to link to the jury and artists (using the existing /visual_art/visual_artist type), would that suffice?
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I am not very familiar with the art world, so I am only familiar with the galleries/organizations that I've tried to type. If you look at Frog Hollow in Vermont, they are a gallery and/or store that only sells their "juried" artists. I believe that's the term they use. And it is not for a specific exhibition, but rather in order for these artists to sell through this organization, they first must be juried. Then I believe they can sell whatever through them.
I've been saying that these artists are members of that organization, which may suffice.
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Ah, I see. In this case, I would second Jeff's suggestion for a "Gallery" type with a property for "Artists Represented". Not quite members of an organization, I think. Just like actors aren't really members of the agencies that represent them -- they're the agencies' clients.
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Fields such as Sculpture, Photography, Painting, Multimedia, etc. It's kinda formal but it's how Art History is usually taught in time-periods, movements and fields (until we reach Modern Art of 1910's and onwards where the trend is towards multimedia).
Examples would be:
Rodin (who would be Sculpture)
Man Ray (Photography)
Michaelangelo (Architecture, Painting, Sculpture)-
The media type (Sculpture, Photography, Painting, etc.) associated with the Visual Artist as you described is captured by the Visual Art Form type. Currently the schema has it set up as a property of Artwork instead of Artist, i.e. "Saint Andrew and Saint Thomas" by Bernini is of form Painting, whereas his "Apollo and Daphne" is of form Sculpture.
We could add Visual Art Form to the Artist type in addition to Visual Artwork. We thought art form would be more precisely modeled as a property of individual artworks, but your suggestion has advantages as well. Note, though, that most artists did not stick with one medium, and most would have more than three art forms you may not identify the artists with. Even Rodin did oil paintings, watercolors, and drawings in charcoal, and Man Ray did illustrations, drawings and paintings earlier in his career.
Let me try it on sandbox to see what the new schema would look like. -
Looks good to me. May also want to link back from Art Form to Artist, in the same way we're linking back to art works.
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I've promoted the schema change to production; you should see Art Form under Artist, and the reverse link as well.
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But what about those that paint on something other than canvas? I've got an artist who paints eggs.
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Hi evening,
Art form is what you do: painting, sculpture, photography, etc. It doesn't describe the material used.
Art media are what you use, and can be entered at the artwork level. Anything used in an artwork is an art medium. So far we have beeswax, caviar, even human hair entered. Egg as an art medium is just fine.
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Ah, it is at the artwork level. Thanks!
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Dear Art Enthusiasts,
If you create a view based off of data in the Visual Art domain, feel free to save a copy here. Yours may just be selected as a featured view occupying the enviable position at the top of the domain home page! I'd like to keep the home page fresh and interesting with new views, updated frequently. This week, check out user krsalis's gallery view of "Johannes Vermeer's Artworks".
Not sure how to create a view? Check out the help page on using the Filter View, which half way down, has a section on creating new views. Have fun!
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Hi, I've added a new type "Art Series" on sandbox for review. For details please see:
http://lists.freebase.com/pipermail/data-modeling/2008-July/000969.html
Thanks.
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This is live on production. Please enter data for Art Series!
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In the header of http://www.freebase.com/view/visual_art , the word visual has acquired an errant "r"...
I don't think I have editorial access to that, so figured I offer a "heads up" here.
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Hi, I've seen some confusion in discerning Art Form from Art Genre from Art Period/Movement as defined here (and in Wikipedia) in labeling artworks. So, to clarify:
ART FORM corresponds with the MEDIUM or FORM of EXPRESSION the artist chooses to employ. Examples of art forms: photography, painting, sculpture, print making.
ART GENRE pertains to the SUBJECT of the artwork. Examples of art genre: portrait, landscape, still life, abstract art.
ART PERIOD/MOVEMENT categorizes the SCHOOL or STYLE of the artwork. Often associated with a distinct period in history, and often end in "-ism". Examples of art period/movement: Impressionism, Cubism, Expressionism.
Thank you for helping keep the data accurate and complete in Freebase.-
Faye, feel free to update the documentation around any of the types as well - you may want to make this point in the description of the visual art domain. Another modeling option you have is to use 'enumerated list' for some of these properties if you don't want users to add new values for a type.
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Good idea, Dan. I've modified Art Form and Art Genre to display as enumerated list under Artist and Artwork where present. I hope this would make data entry easier without testing users on type definitions. I remember modifying some documentation articles to clarify but will double check.
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